From Officer Forums: Raid Core Guidelines - Discussion

[gelmir]

I think it's time we discussed our General Raid Core Guidelines (PvE and PvP) as we are approaching level 50 as a guild. Following are the original Lodge Raid Core Guidelines from our time in Rift. I am posting it first, as for basis reference to our discussion. It was created by 3 former guild/raid leaders, who were officers in Lodge. I will be making new post adapting this reference to ESO and creating a new template upon which we can start our discussions:




 

IMPORTANT NOTE: To clarify things - and this is not something new, we just missed to state it here - main-spec in our raids, means the roles you rolled for, when joined our Raid Core and are actively ready for those roles whenever you are called to action. Off-spec are the remaining roles. Additionally, we *may* consider overriding loot distribution towards the roles you play most, if Raid Leader sees fit. Such as: although a Cleric has rolled for both Tank and Healing, and he does Healing job in regular basis, when competing we may give that Cleric more healing loot and override tanking stuff towards regular Tanks. In general, we don't need more than 4x tanks, or 4x support, so that might be tricky there. Please don't log straight off, after such overrides, as ML might change his mind shortly after.

Before listing our Raid rules, please be advised that Lodge of Sorceresses is not casual raiding guild, but semi-hardcore one, with progression and discipline as a goal, towards endgame success. Thus, our rules will be rather serious than relaxed when it comes to raiding.

Following are our Raid Guidelines, and by joining our Raid Core - either as main core, or reserve -, a member is accepting these rules:


Prior To Raids

• Sign-Ups: Raid Core members are bound to join minimum 3 (three) scheduled raids: they must use guild calendar to signup for events. If member's real-life schedules change, they must notify guild leadership about that, so that we could try to reschedule (which won't happen that easily). Lack of notification and later absence will result in 1 (one) Warning point being issued to that person.
  
  Sign-ups are not accepted past 6pm GMT - such RSVPs will be considered invalid and the Raider will be considered as not signed up.
  
  Additionally, if you think you can't attend certain event, please try to post in comments of that raid event on Calendar, in advance, stating the situation. Overall, its allowed to miss up to 4 (four) raids in a monthly basis (with or without notification). Replacements will be brought in, if that happens.
   
• Days: Guild will be doing 4 (four) days/week raiding, however Raiders will be attending 3 (three) days/week, 3 (three) hours/day raiding, which is mandatory for Raid Core team. As we aim for 30 men in our Raid Core, it will be through rotation of Core. Raider is bound to remain for those 3 hours, which is our minimum daily raiding norm. Raids shouldn't last past midnight GMT+2, and if they do, raider is allowed to leave at his/her own discretion. Otherwise, raider cannot leave raid before time (he/she needs to stay until midnight or until 3-hours-time, whichever happens first). Raids always start at 7pm GMT. Boss pull commences at 7:15pm GMT.
  
  Missing more than 1 (one) raid in a week (you can only miss 1 of 4 raids) will result in 1 (one) Warning point for each raid missed. Example, missing 3 of 4 raids in a week, will result in 2 Warning points.
   
• Don't Be Late! Raiders should be online, equipped and out of groups 15 minutes prior the raid time. Failing to be ready at this time may result in 1 (one) Warning point, at Raid Leader's discretion. In case of emergencies, raiders need to be online not later than 15 mins from raid time, which is 7:30 pm GMT - and the raider needs to notify about this situation prior the raid.
   
• Requirements: Raiders need to have all requirements met, including add-on installation, Teamspeak/Mumble installation and stats. Additionally, reading guides for progression bosses, prior to the raid hour is a strong recommendation (and only!). Lacking the MUST-HAVE criteria, a player might be replaced immediately and 1 (one) Warning point *will* be issued to his account in any case.
   
• Be In Shape! Raiders can't join raids in heavily drunken or similar state, as it damages team progression. If this becomes the case, raid leader reserves the right to remove such raider from raid. When this happens, 1 (one) Warning point will be issued to the person in question.
   
• Be Prepared! Raiders can take required Health, Mana and AP/SP potions from Guild Bank for free (guild raids only) prior the raid. They need to mend their souls and have full planar charges.
   
• Mains Only! Raid Core members can only bring their main characters! No alts are allowed to progression raids. For our alts, separate farming raids will be organized, mostly during daytime on weekends. Additionally, you can join countless PUGs that happen in Icewatch.
   
• Two-Roles Minimum! Raiders must have minimum 2 (two) different roles/specs for our raids. Roles/specs are defined to be of four types: damage dealer, healer, support and tank. Raider needs to have at least two of these, soul combination of their choice, yet with good parse-numbers, trained and mastered, before joining raids. Mage Archon, Cleric Defiler, Warrior Beastmaster and Rogue Bard are considered to be Support roles - and only! Failing to be able to play all your roles effectively, potentially is subject to removal from Raid Core altogether. 3 (three) Warning points will be issues in any case though.

 

In Raid

• Leaders: Raider must listen to directives of Raid Leader and be constructive with his/her comments. Being overly offensive and intolerant will not be tolerated. Removal from raid due to this reason, by raid leader, will result in 1 (one) Warning point.
   
• Rage Quitting Strictly Forbidden! Raider rage-quitting the raid, will be removed from our Raid Core immediately without further notification.
   
• Be Vigil! Raider needs to be attentive and alert during raid time: newbie behavior such as continuous ninja pulling (at all times), dying on mechanics by his/her own fault (farming raids), failing in special duties (again, during farming) are not the features we seek in potential raiders. During farming runs, if raider fails, only 2 (two) faulty wipes (on account of person causing it, example being: not doing his/her special duty and wiping raid etc) - and 5 (five) personally-caused deaths (e.g. not evading certain boss attack) will be tolerated. After that point Raid Leader reserves the right either to re-assign the duty or in worst case scenario, to replace raider. 1 (one) Warning point will be issued in that case. However if this situation continues for everyday in the same week, Raider's Core membership will be monitored by guild leadership. Failing for second week, might result in removal from Raid Core - which at this point, only proves that player in question is unable to perform in raids and thus, ineligible to be Raid Core member. During progression runs, this rule do not apply, since its all about wiping there, until we figure out how to down the boss. However, on 3rd (third) week of progression on the same boss, we will consider that boss as farm-effective, since by then, whole raid would know all tactics and mechanics for that boss. At that point, every rule above listed for farming, will be applicable on that certain "progression" boss.
   
• Voice-over-IP Etiquette: Raiders are not to dominate TS/Mumble, especially giving orders around, and/or trying to change the flow of raid tactics. Raid Leader has sole and unquestionable privilege to do that. If raiders have some new insight regarding tactics, they are welcome to share this information with Raid Leader in private chat. But doing so openly in raid channel is strictly forbidden, and raider doing so will be issued 1 (one) Warning Point immediately. Whether to remove that raider from raid, or not, it'll be in sole discretion of Raid Leader.
  
  Additionally, bashing raiders for failures is strictly forbidden: that right relies with Raid Leader only. A Raider complaining about some other Raider's failures during raid, in VoIP, is subject to 1 (one) Warning point immediately, and possibly can be replaced with other Raider.

 

Loot Rules

• Loot Table: Loot table can be found here. Our loot system is fair distribution based. Generally, raiders roll for loot that applies to the roles they chose when they joined the Core, the roles they which play frequently. Example: a Raider has rolled for Tank and Damage for Core, but he plays only as Tank (although he is completely Damage-capable): (s)he will be rolling for Tank loot as in-spec, for Damage loot as off-spec. If that Raider plays both his roles actively and frequently, then he can roll for loot of both categories in-spec. Which roles you can play, is determined by Raid Leader during raid-time.
   
• Loot Points for Items Types: Each item type (epics, relics, cells and hearts) have certain amount of loot-points assigned to them. Relics count as +2 towards subtotal, Cells and Greed items count as +0. The rest: +1.
   
• Loot Distribution: Raiders with lowest loot count and those who are in +2 range of loot count to them can roll for loot. Example: among Raiders, from within Clerics, player A has 3 loot points, B has 4 points; C and D have 6 points - in this scenario, players with loot points between 3-4 can roll. Those with higher loot points will have to wait until others catch up with them.

 

Warning Points

 

Warning points are issued via forums, for certain penalty-requiring Raider behaviour. They reset every week. Once a Raider reaches 3 (three) Warning Points for a given week, he will be put into Review-by-Raid-Leader status, as Raid Core member. If he gets 3 (three) Warning Points the next week, he will be removed from Raid Core and can't rejoin for 1 (one) full month. Review-by-Raid-Leader status is reset after 2 (two) weeks, if Raider manages to remain in Raid Core.

The situations mentioned above will cause your account to be issued a Warning point(s).

[gelmir]

Ok, let's create a template here. Text in green are new additions. Generally by progression I meant classic, traditional raids from other MMOs. In ESO Trials - especially when they are time-constrained - things might be different. At that point, as we get more experience, we might adapt these rules to that experience even more. Now let's discuss these guidelines - please share your thoughts:



 

IMPORTANT NOTE: To clarify things, main-spec in our raids, means the roles you rolled for, when joined our Raid Core and are actively ready for those roles whenever you are called to action. Off-spec are the remaining roles. Additionally, we *may* consider overriding loot distribution towards the roles you play most, if Raid Leader sees fit. Such as: although a Cleric has rolled for both Tank and Healing, and he does Healing job in regular basis, when competing we may give that Cleric more healing loot and override tanking stuff towards regular Tanks. In general, we don't need more than 4x tanks, or 4x support, so that might be tricky there. Please don't log straight off, after such overrides, as ML might change his mind shortly after.

Before listing our Raid rules, please be advised that Lodge of Sorceresses is not casual raiding guild, but semi-hardcore one, with progression and discipline as a goal, towards endgame success. Thus, our rules will be rather serious than relaxed when it comes to raiding.

Following are our Raid Guidelines, and by joining our Raid Core - either as main core, or reserve -, a member is accepting these rules:


Prior To Raids

• Sign-Ups: Raid Core members are bound to join minimum 3 (three) scheduled raids: they must use guild calendar to signup for events. If member's real-life schedules change, they must notify guild leadership about that, so that we could try to reschedule (which won't happen that easily). Lack of notification and later absence will result in 1 (one) Warning point being issued to that person.
  
  Sign-ups are not accepted past 6pm GMT - such RSVPs will be considered invalid and the Raider will be considered as not signed up.
  
  Additionally, if you think you can't attend certain event, please try to post in comments of that raid event on Calendar, in advance, stating the situation. Overall, its allowed to miss up to 4 (four) raids in a monthly basis (with or without notification). Replacements will be brought in, if that happens.
   
• Days: Guild will be doing 4 (four) days/week raiding, however Raiders will be attending 3 (three) days/week, 3 (three) hours/day raiding, which is mandatory for Raid Core team. As we aim for 30 men 50 men in our Raid Core (to suit needs of 2x 24-men Teams) in our Raid Core, it will might be through rotation of Core. Raider is bound to remain for those 3 hours, which is our minimum daily raiding norm. Raids shouldn't last past midnight GMT+2 EET/EEST (whichever is in effect), and if they do, raider is allowed to leave at his/her own discretion. Otherwise, raider cannot leave raid before time (he/she needs to stay until midnight or until 3-hours-time, whichever happens first). Raids always start at 7pm GMT 9pm EET/EEST. Boss pull commences at 7:15pm GMT 9:15pm EET/EEST.
  
  Missing more than 1 (one) raid in a week (you can only miss 1 of 4 raids) will result in 1 (one) Warning point for each raid missed. Example, missing 3 of 4 raids in a week, will result in 2 Warning points.
   
• Don't Be Late! Raiders should be online, equipped and out of groups 15 minutes prior the raid time. Failing to be ready at this time may result in 1 (one) Warning point, at Raid Leader's discretion. In case of emergencies, raiders need to be online not later than 15 mins from raid time, which is 7:30 pm GMT 9:30pm EET/EEST - and the raider needs to notify about this situation prior the raid.
   
• Requirements: Raiders need to have all requirements met, including add-on installation, Teamspeak/Mumble installation and stats. Additionally, reading guides for progression bosses, prior to the raid hour is a strong recommendation (and only!). Lacking the MUST-HAVE criteria, a player might be replaced immediately and 1 (one) Warning point *will* be issued to his account in any case.
   
• Be In Shape! Raiders can't join raids in heavily drunken or similar state, as it damages team progression. If this becomes the case, raid leader reserves the right to remove such raider from raid. When this happens, 1 (one) Warning point will be issued to the person in question.
   
• Be Prepared! Raiders can take required Health, Mana Magicka and AP/SP WP/SP (Weapon Power and Spell Power, respectively) potions from Guild Bank for free (guild raids only) prior the raid. They need to mend their souls and have full planar charges.
   
• Mains Only! Raid Core members can only bring their main characters! No alts are allowed to progression raids. For our alts, separate farming raids will be organized, mostly during daytime on weekends. Additionally, you can join countless PUGs that happen in Icewatch.
   
• Two-Roles Minimum! Raiders must have minimum 2 (two) different roles/specs for our raids. Roles/specs are defined to be of four types: damage dealer, healer, support (damage-dealer/healer combination) and tank. Raider needs to have at least two of these, soul skill-line combination of their choice, yet with good parse-numbers, trained and mastered, before joining raids. Mage Archon, Cleric Defiler, Warrior Beastmaster and Rogue Bard are considered to be Support roles - and only! Failing to be able to play all your roles effectively, potentially is subject to removal from Raid Core altogether. 3 (three) Warning points will be issued in any case though.

 

In Raid

• Leaders: Raider must listen to directives of Raid Leader and be constructive with his/her comments. Being overly offensive and intolerant will not be tolerated. Removal from raid due to this reason, by raid leader, will result in 1 (one) Warning point.
   
• Rage Quitting Strictly Forbidden! Raider rage-quitting the raid, will be removed from our Raid Core immediately without further notification.
   
• Be Vigil! Raider needs to be attentive and alert during raid time: newbie behavior such as continuous ninja pulling (at all times), dying on mechanics by his/her own fault (farming raids), failing in special duties (again, during farming) are not the features we seek in potential raiders. During farming runs, if raider fails, only 2 (two) faulty wipes (on account of person causing it, example being: not doing his/her special duty and wiping raid etc) - and 5 (five) personally-caused deaths (e.g. not evading certain boss attack) will be tolerated. After that point Raid Leader reserves the right either to re-assign the duty to someone else and/or in worst case scenario, to replace raider. 1 (one) Warning point will be issued in that case. However if this situation continues for everyday in the same week, Raider's Core membership will be monitored by guild leadership. Failing for second week, might result in removal from Raid Core - which at this point, only proves that player in question is unable to perform in raids and thus, ineligible to be Raid Core member. During progression runs, this rule do not apply, since its all about wiping there, until we figure out how to down the boss. However, on 3rd (third) week of progression on the same boss, we will consider that boss as farm-effective, since by then, whole raid would know all tactics and mechanics for that boss. At that point, every rule above listed for farming, will be applicable on that certain "progression" boss.
   
• Voice-over-IP Etiquette: Raiders are not to dominate TS/Mumble, especially giving orders around, and/or trying to change the flow of raid tactics. Raid Leader has sole and unquestionable privilege to do that. If raiders have some new insight regarding tactics, they are welcome to share this information with Raid Leader in private chat. But doing so openly in raid channel is strictly forbidden, and raider doing so will be issued 1 (one) Warning Point immediately. Whether to remove that raider from raid, or not, it'll be in sole discretion of Raid Leader.
  
  Additionally, bashing raiders for failures is strictly forbidden: that right relies with Raid Leader only. A Raider complaining about some other Raider's failures during raid, in VoIP, is subject to 1 (one) Warning point immediately, and possibly can be replaced with other Raider.

 

Loot Rules

• Loot Table: Loot table can be found here. Our loot system is fair distribution based. Generally, raiders roll for loot that applies to the roles they chose when they joined the Core, the roles they which play frequently. Example: a Raider has rolled for Tank and Damage for Core, but he plays only as Tank (although he is completely Damage-capable): (s)he will be rolling for Tank loot as in-spec, for Damage loot as off-spec. If that Raider plays both his roles actively and frequently, then he can roll for loot of both categories in-spec. Which roles you can play, is determined by Raid Leader during raid-time.
   
• Loot Points for Items Types: Each item type (epics, relics, cells and hearts) have certain amount of loot-points assigned to them. Relics count as +2 towards subtotal, Cells and Greed items count as +0. The rest: +1.
   
• Loot Distribution: Raiders with lowest loot count and those who are in +2 range of loot count to them can roll for loot. Example: among Raiders, from within Clerics, player A has 3 loot points, B has 4 points; C and D have 6 points - in this scenario, players with loot points between 3-4 can roll. Those with higher loot points will have to wait until others catch up with them.

 

Warning Points

 

Warning points are issued via forums, for certain penalty-requiring Raider behaviour. They reset every week. Once a Raider reaches 3 (three) Warning Points for a given week, he will be put into Review-by-Raid-Leader status, as Raid Core member. If he gets 3 (three) Warning Points the next week, he will be removed from Raid Core and can't rejoin for 1 (one) full month. Review-by-Raid-Leader status is reset after 2 (two) weeks, if Raider manages to remain in Raid Core.

The situations mentioned above will cause your account to be issued a Warning point(s).

[Nuin]

Maybe this does not have to do with the rules, but....

 

I think we should still do casual non core PvP event and PvE event. Maybe once a week for both.

There will be ppl who can't do 3 days a week but still wants to raid maybe in weekends. So could be saturday adn sunday a PvP one day and PvE next and then alternate the days.

 

Says the one who might not have time for 3/week due to possibly work and getting up very early some days

 

I thought rules was fine in Rift.

But isn't the lootsystem different here? So there is no rolling or something? Maybe share the chests? Maybe encourage ppl to share loot they can't use with other grouped members and then with raiders in guild and then with guild in generel? Maybe loot-rules is unnessecary? (Edit: arg sorry too fast scrolling lol)

 

In accordance to be on time and prepared I think it is fair rules. It is ppls time and we all have rl-stuff we also need to do, so limited gametime.

 

And I think we should encourage ppl to share resources: like I plan to make potions and staffs and bows for who ever needs them, as we did in Rift, instead of like in WoWguild where I had to buy things I needed even though I actually bought auctions of guildppl and sold back to them (seemed so silly and unfriendly and not knitting the group together). Not that it will be an issue, because it seems ppl are already sharing things

Edited April 14, 2014 by Nuin

[gelmir]

Nuin, I already posted second adapted version, where there are no Loot rules [scratched]. And yea, we will eventually have raids for alts, so guess that will be raids for non-committed players...

[Thyworm]

Okay some thoughts:

 

To start out, 4 raids a week is alot. We can aim for that, but we won't start off with 4 raids a week. I think you'll agree on that at the start of the game, right?

 

I agree with most requirements/rules.

 

Roles however, can be tricky. Healers are probably the best with templar/restoration build. They will have the most healing bonuses etc. I'm not sure if you should ask healers to play a second role as well. Respeccing will cost a fortune. I'm just wondering what builds can be achieved with all the skill points available. We'll have to see. Same thing goes for tanking. You can ask a tank to play some sort of support role, with shielding party members and buffing them, but to actually do decent DPS you need a ton of skillpoints invested in other trees. Once again, not sure if that's viable at the start. You also need points in crafting of course, armor, you catch my drift. 

 

One thing I would like to add to the rules.

 

When raiding, PvE comes before Role Playing. We can't have all kind of RP wacky builds, but need some solid raiding builds, whatever that means. Wacky builds, vampires, werewolves and stuff like that could potentially cause huge problems. 

 

Please rephrase, but you get the point. This is very important in this ESO game, because ppl tend to RP, but need to understand that proven builds and steady tanking/DPS/Healing is needed in order to progress. The point is also made somewhat clear in your other rules, but I think it should be explicitly mentioned. I've said this somewhere else, but I highly doubt we can take on a fireboss with vampires in the raid. Even if they stack spell resistance, they are still 50% weaker than the rest. And you should stack spell resistance for magic bosses anyway. 

[gelmir]

Its 3 days, not 4.

 

Damn, for a moment I got carried away: we can't have 2 specs, it ain't Rift Ok, I will make necessary changes.

 

And no, there is no and cannot be any RP during PvE. Those two are totally different activities and cannot be mixed. That said, there is no need to put this into rules. If necessary, people learn it hard way.

[Nuin]

I think we all know RP is not to disrupt PvE or PvP.

I know I said something before launch even about skills that would fit the RP of a char, but RP wise skillpoints can be destributed so they also fit with PvE/PvP. You need to fight in this game one way or the other, so I don't really understand why you want it as a rule?

 

Sorry if I sounded sour, I was tired, was not my intention

Edited April 15, 2014 by Nuin

[gelmir]

Ok, clearing up Raid Core Guidelines based on the feedback we had here:

 

====================================================================
 

Before listing our Raid rules, please be advised that Lodge of Sorceresses is not casual raiding guild, but semi-hardcore one, with progression and discipline as a goal, towards endgame success. Thus, our rules will be rather serious than relaxed when it comes to raiding.

Following are our Raid Guidelines, and by joining our Raid Core - either as main core, or reserve -, a member is accepting these rules:


Prior To Raids

• Sign-Ups: Raid Core members are bound to join minimum 3 (three) scheduled raids: they must use guild calendar to signup for events. If member's real-life schedules change, they must notify guild leadership about that, so that we could try to reschedule (which won't happen that easily). Lack of notification and later absence will result in 1 (one) Warning point being issued to that person.
  
  Sign-ups are not accepted past 6pm GMT - such RSVPs will be considered invalid and the Raider will be considered as not signed up.
  
  Additionally, if you think you can't attend certain event, please try to post in comments of that raid event on Calendar, in advance, stating the situation. Overall, its allowed to miss up to 4 (four) raids in a monthly basis (with or without notification). Replacements will be brought in, if that happens.
   
• Days: Guild will be doing 4 (four) days/week raiding, however Raiders will be attending 3 (three) days/week, 3 (three) hours/day raiding, which is mandatory for Raid Core team. As we aim for 50 men in our Raid Core (to suit needs of 2x 24-men Teams) in our Raid Core, it might be through rotation of Core. Raider is bound to remain for those 3 hours, which is our minimum daily raiding norm. Raids shouldn't last past midnight EET/EEST (whichever is in effect), and if they do, raider is allowed to leave at his/her own discretion. Otherwise, raider cannot leave raid before time (he/she needs to stay until midnight or until 3-hours-time, whichever happens first). Raids always start at 9pm EET/EEST. Boss pull commences at 9:15pm EET/EEST.
  
  Missing more than 1 (one) raid in a week (you can only miss 1 of 4 raids) will result in 1 (one) Warning point for each raid missed. Example, missing 3 of 4 raids in a week, will result in 2 Warning points.
   
• Don't Be Late! Raiders should be online, equipped and out of groups 15 minutes prior the raid time. Failing to be ready at this time may result in 1 (one) Warning point, at Raid Leader's discretion. In case of emergencies, raiders need to be online not later than 15 mins from raid time, which is 9:30pm EET/EEST - and the raider needs to notify about this situation prior the raid.
   
• Requirements: Raiders need to have all requirements met, including add-on installation, Teamspeak/Mumble installation and stats. Additionally, reading guides for progression bosses, prior to the raid hour is a strong recommendation (and only!). Lacking the MUST-HAVE criteria, a player might be replaced immediately and 1 (one) Warning point *will* be issued to his account in any case.
   
• Be In Shape! Raiders can't join raids in heavily drunken or similar state, as it damages team progression. If this becomes the case, raid leader reserves the right to remove such raider from raid. When this happens, 1 (one) Warning point will be issued to the person in question.
   
• Be Prepared! Raiders can take required Health, Magicka and WD/SD (Weapon Damage and Spell Damage, respectively) potions from Guild Bank for free (guild raids only) prior the raid. They need to mend their souls and have full planar charges.
   
• Mains Only! Raid Core members can only bring their main characters! No alts are allowed to progression raids. For our alts, separate farming raids will be organized, mostly during daytime on weekends. Additionally, you can join countless PUGs.
   
• Two-Roles Minimum! Raiders must have minimum 2 (two) different roles/specs for our raids. Roles/specs are defined to be of four types: damage dealer, healer, support (damage-dealer/healer combination) and tank. Raider needs to have at least two of these, skill-line combination of their choice, yet with good parse-numbers, trained and mastered, before joining raids. Failing to be able to play all your roles effectively, potentially is subject to removal from Raid Core altogether. 3 (three) Warning points will be issued in any case though.

 

In Raid

• Leaders: Raider must listen to directives of Raid Leader and be constructive with his/her comments. Being overly offensive and intolerant will not be tolerated. Removal from raid due to this reason, by raid leader, will result in 1 (one) Warning point.
   
• Rage Quitting Strictly Forbidden! Raider rage-quitting the raid, will be removed from our Raid Core immediately without further notification.
   
• Be Vigil! Raider needs to be attentive and alert during raid time: newbie behavior such as continuous ninja pulling (at all times), dying on mechanics by his/her own fault (farming raids), failing in special duties (again, during farming) are not the features we seek in potential raiders. During farming runs, if raider fails, only 2 (two) faulty wipes (on account of person causing it, example being: not doing his/her special duty and wiping raid etc) - and 5 (five) personally-caused deaths (e.g. not evading certain boss attack) will be tolerated. After that point Raid Leader reserves the right either to re-assign the duty to someone else and/or in worst case scenario, to replace raider. 1 (one) Warning point will be issued in that case. However if this situation continues for everyday in the same week, Raider's Core membership will be monitored by guild leadership. Failing for second week, might result in removal from Raid Core - which at this point, only proves that player in question is unable to perform in raids and thus, ineligible to be Raid Core member. During progression runs, this rule do not apply, since its all about wiping there, until we figure out how to down the boss. However, on 3rd (third) week of progression on the same boss, we will consider that boss as farm-effective, since by then, whole raid would know all tactics and mechanics for that boss. At that point, every rule above listed for farming, will be applicable on that certain "progression" boss.
   
• Voice-over-IP Etiquette: Raiders are not to dominate TS/Mumble, especially giving orders around, and/or trying to change the flow of raid tactics. Raid Leader has sole and unquestionable privilege to do that. If raiders have some new insight regarding tactics, they are welcome to share this information with Raid Leader in private chat. But doing so openly in raid channel is strictly forbidden, and raider doing so will be issued 1 (one) Warning Point immediately. Whether to remove that raider from raid, or not, it'll be in sole discretion of Raid Leader.
  
  Additionally, bashing raiders for failures is strictly forbidden: that right relies with Raid Leader only. A Raider complaining about some other Raider's failures during raid, in VoIP, is subject to 1 (one) Warning point immediately, and possibly can be replaced with other Raider.

Warning Points

 

Warning points are issued via forums, for certain penalty-requiring Raider behaviour. They reset every week. Once a Raider reaches 3 (three) Warning Points for a given week, he will be put into Review-by-Raid-Leader status, as Raid Core member. If he gets 3 (three) Warning Points the next week, he will be removed from Raid Core and can't rejoin for 1 (one) full month. Review-by-Raid-Leader status is reset after 2 (two) weeks, if Raider manages to remain in Raid Core.

The situations mentioned above will cause your account to be issued a Warning point(s).

[gelmir]

Thyworm, about your pretence regarding "two specs minimum": I think its viable requirement.

 

As far as tanking is concerned, its only 2 half-skill lines in the game for which skill-point requirements are not high at all (considering its 300+ points you can easily achieve via exploring/questing). Technically even Mages are capable of tanking, considering our Daedric Summoning skill line has awesome Bound Armor ability which completely and totally compensates for our light armor vs heavy armor comparison. I actually plan to put this theory to the test in coming dungeons I attend.

 

As far as healing is concerned, I really don't want lazy DPS there: I believe each Core member should pay the equal attention to their builds, and spend resources to that end, be it skill-points or otherwise. At the very least, I'd expect minor healing support from all DPS here - as it is quite harder to level skill lines in this game compared to traditional MMOs. I think that would be fair approach especially towards our tanks and healers. Pure DPS without any support capability whatsoever is an easy job, and I hate lazy version of easy.

 

 

Everyone, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this one. Right now, I am extremely convinced on this point of view and you will have to give me very good reasons to reconsider it. 

[Thyworm]

Well, in theory you can get 300 skillpoints. True. But practically that will take months to get. Because you need to have completed all the factions. I'm lvl 45 now, got my tank build almost ready, but will need like 10-13 skill points more. After lvl 50, you won't get skillpoints anymore from leveling. You will have to take in mind the time we start raiding. If that is sooner than the time people realistically get to complete the factions, your two-role requirement might work only in theory.

 

I agree on the lazy DPS part. But a good DPS should also invest in the Fighters guild/Mages guild. And in armor. And also in at least 2 craft. With my point above, i'm not sure at what time in the game there will be room for additional skilltrees. 

 

I really doubt if technically mages will be able to tank. I hear the armor argument a lot, but most of my mitigation comes from passive heavy armor abilities and passive/active sword and shield abilities. Consider this:

 

the 3 Sword and shield passive skills:

+20% damage mitigation when blocking melee attacks

+35% damage mitigation when blocking ranged attacks

 

Heavy armor skills:

+7% healing received

plus various armor and spell resistance bonuses, but light armor also gets spell resistance

 

DK Draconic Power:  

+10% damage mitigation when blocking

+12% healing received

+ spell resistance

 

DK Earthen Heart:

The one and only tanking ultimate: Magma Shell IV

 

All these numbers add up. Racial bonuses also accumulate. 

 

I'm 'extremely' convinced DK/Heavy armor/Sword and shield will offer protection on all fronts which no other class can match. +30% damage mitigation when blocking is so essential. And on heavy hitters i just taunt and block all day long. And the ultimate? I can trigger that and be invulnerable for 14,4 seconds. It's gonna save the raid many times. When a healer dies for example. This is why i'm very sceptical about any other classes tanking. Especially main-tanking. Especially if they don't pick up heavy armor and sword and shield. I just don't see how you can make up for these differences. 

[gelmir]

Yes, and you are not raiding before hitting Vet rank 10, which equals to what you said: questing out all the zones. So this argument I think is answered.

 

About DPS using points for Guild skills: That's irrelevant. The way tanks and healers use points on their second skill-lines, DPS as well can invest on secondary role which will not be core role for him/her (as I said above, support role there is more than enough), meaning it will be much easier for Support-DPS to build up his Support role, than it is for Healer or Tank to build his Damage role.

 

About your mage mitigation examples: They are valid only if you stick that mage with Light armor only. Remember that mages can easily level their Heavy/Medium armor as well and cherry-pick the needed mitigation abilities from that set, which only would require handful of skill points. The only difference there is made by DK abilities, which get compensated by Daedric bound armor I mentioned for mage. Overall, from whatever angle you look at things, its ultimately possible (and quite easily, if you give it a bit of thought) to play any role for any class. The killer restriction is quite a few in the game, almost non-existing. Even the fact that Light armor grants magicka regen passive buff is possible to get, as it can be leveled up and utilized easily by any NON-mage class.

 

 

OVERALL: Again, since raids ain't gonna start before rank 10 (I am generally talking about Trials here), the ultimate goal here is to getting ALL possible skill points and creating well-versed character for min 2 roles. Which is possible, without a doubt. And yes, it DEFINITELY is a grind: as in any MMO, thankfully, ESO's grinding mentality is exploration-based (which I love actually). We all will have to "grind" to get there.

 

And again, as a very small yet important side note, please let me remind everyone: Lodge is NOT casual raiding guild. We are semi-hardcore raiding guild, meaning WHATEVER is necessary to achieve success, will be required and enforced.

 

Please let's continue discussions, I need to hear as many arguments as I can hear. Kick my ass

[gelmir]

Cmon guys, I really need counter-arguments here, if you really feel I am on wrong with this "two-roles for all" rule. Or if you come to agree, state that. Lack of response doesn't really give a cool feeling

[Guest neaNicu]

I will probably not be part of what you call raid core team so I will not comment on rules. Regarding 2 roles, you are right from a skill point of view: there are enough of them to level all skills especially if you don't do all 6 crafting. But how do you plan about attributes? For example as tank you put everything in health to survive longer but in that case you'll don't have enough magicka to generate damage for your second role. You could try a mix but in that case you'll just be average at both tanking and dps. I guess it all depends on difficulty but reading the rules I guess you expect something bad. Especially the 2 weeks research do farm boss in 3rd week sounds that it will be hard. I dont like the mandatory shield for tanks, I hope it will not be true. Where did you read about 24 man raids? I thought 12 is maximum? Sorry for spelling mistakes, I post from mobile.

[gelmir]

Its almost always the case with all MMOs, Serana: The max number of party formation is generally scaled for the biggest event you can undertake. Generally raids start as 10-12 man and then they grow to 20-24 man versions (which are the real fun here). Craglorn is just half-party raids. I read about 24-man raids in early days of beta events, a year or two ago.

 

You are right about stats, but I highly doubt that would be so limiting in this game, otherwise, if you put all attributes to Health as melee tank and ignore Stamina, you will cripple yourself badly: you can't even block without stamina. So its almost always a share between stats. Same is true for casters as well: remember from Skyrim, that to be able to hold Wards up you needed good magicka and to survive: decent Health? Same is true here as well. Both magicka and stamina are important components in tanks' lives in ESO. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Ok, I will move this topic to public forums for guild-wide discussion sometime today. Let's hear members' thoughts on Guidelines.

[gelmir]

Hello guys and gals,

 

Following is our General Raid Core Guidelines for PvE and PvP. I am releasing it for guild-wide discussions for week's period, after which we will have it announced effective. It was adapted from our original Rift Raid Core Guidelines:

 

====================================================================

 

Before listing our Raid rules, please be advised that Lodge of Sorceresses is not casual raiding guild, but semi-hardcore one, with progression and discipline as a goal, towards endgame success. Thus, our rules will be rather serious than relaxed when it comes to raiding.

Following are our Raid Guidelines, and by joining our Raid Core - either as main core, or reserve -, a member is accepting these rules:


Prior To Raids

• Sign-Ups: Raid Core members are bound to join minimum 3 (three) scheduled raids: they must use guild calendar to signup for events. If member's real-life schedules change, they must notify guild leadership about that, so that we could try to reschedule (which won't happen that easily). Lack of notification and later absence will result in 1 (one) Warning point being issued to that person.
  
  Sign-ups are not accepted past 6pm GMT - such RSVPs will be considered invalid and the Raider will be considered as not signed up.
  
  Additionally, if you think you can't attend certain event, please try to post in comments of that raid event on Calendar, in advance, stating the situation. Overall, its allowed to miss up to 4 (four) raids in a monthly basis (with or without notification). Replacements will be brought in, if that happens.
   
• Days: Guild will be doing 4 (four) days/week raiding, however Raiders will be attending 3 (three) days/week, 3 (three) hours/day raiding, which is mandatory for Raid Core team. As we aim for 50 men in our Raid Core (to suit needs of 2x 24-men Teams) in our Raid Core, it might be through rotation of Core. Raider is bound to remain for those 3 hours, which is our minimum daily raiding norm. Raids shouldn't last past midnight EET/EEST (whichever is in effect), and if they do, raider is allowed to leave at his/her own discretion. Otherwise, raider cannot leave raid before time (he/she needs to stay until midnight or until 3-hours-time, whichever happens first). Raids always start at 9pm EET/EEST. Boss pull commences at 9:15pm EET/EEST.
  
  Missing more than 1 (one) raid in a week (you can only miss 1 of 4 raids) will result in 1 (one) Warning point for each raid missed. Example, missing 3 of 4 raids in a week, will result in 2 Warning points.
   
• Don't Be Late! Raiders should be online, equipped and out of groups 15 minutes prior the raid time. Failing to be ready at this time may result in 1 (one) Warning point, at Raid Leader's discretion. In case of emergencies, raiders need to be online not later than 15 mins from raid time, which is 9:30pm EET/EEST - and the raider needs to notify about this situation prior the raid.
   
• Requirements: Raiders need to have all requirements met, including add-on installation, Teamspeak/Mumble installation and stats. Additionally, reading guides for progression bosses, prior to the raid hour is a strong recommendation (and only!). Lacking the MUST-HAVE criteria, a player might be replaced immediately and 1 (one) Warning point *will* be issued to his account in any case.
   
• Be In Shape! Raiders can't join raids in heavily drunken or similar state, as it damages team progression. If this becomes the case, raid leader reserves the right to remove such raider from raid. When this happens, 1 (one) Warning point will be issued to the person in question.
   
• Be Prepared! Raiders can take required Health, Magicka and WD/SD (Weapon Damage and Spell Damage, respectively) potions from Guild Bank for free (guild raids only) prior the raid. They need to mend their souls and have full planar charges.
   
• Mains Only! Raid Core members can only bring their main characters! No alts are allowed to progression raids. For our alts, separate farming raids will be organized, mostly during daytime on weekends. Additionally, you can join countless PUGs.
   
• Two-Roles Minimum! Raiders must have minimum 2 (two) different roles/specs for our raids. Roles/specs are defined to be of four types: damage dealer, healer, support (damage-dealer/healer combination) and tank. Raider needs to have at least two of these, skill-line combination of their choice, yet with good parse-numbers, trained and mastered, before joining raids. Failing to be able to play all your roles effectively, potentially is subject to removal from Raid Core altogether. 3 (three) Warning points will be issued in any case though.

 

In Raid

• Leaders: Raider must listen to directives of Raid Leader and be constructive with his/her comments. Being overly offensive and intolerant will not be tolerated. Removal from raid due to this reason, by raid leader, will result in 1 (one) Warning point.
   
• Rage Quitting Strictly Forbidden! Raider rage-quitting the raid, will be removed from our Raid Core immediately without further notification.
   
• Be Vigil! Raider needs to be attentive and alert during raid time: newbie behavior such as continuous ninja pulling (at all times), dying on mechanics by his/her own fault (farming raids), failing in special duties (again, during farming) are not the features we seek in potential raiders. During farming runs, if raider fails, only 2 (two) faulty wipes (on account of person causing it, example being: not doing his/her special duty and wiping raid etc) - and 5 (five) personally-caused deaths (e.g. not evading certain boss attack) will be tolerated. After that point Raid Leader reserves the right either to re-assign the duty to someone else and/or in worst case scenario, to replace raider. 1 (one) Warning point will be issued in that case. However if this situation continues for everyday in the same week, Raider's Core membership will be monitored by guild leadership. Failing for second week, might result in removal from Raid Core - which at this point, only proves that player in question is unable to perform in raids and thus, ineligible to be Raid Core member. During progression runs, this rule do not apply, since its all about wiping there, until we figure out how to down the boss.    However, on 3rd (third) week of progression on the same boss, we will consider that boss as farm-effective, since by then, whole raid would know all tactics and mechanics for that boss. At that point, every rule above listed for farming, will be applicable on that certain "progression" boss.
   
• Voice-over-IP Etiquette: Raiders are not to dominate TS/Mumble, especially giving orders around, and/or trying to change the flow of raid tactics. Raid Leader has sole and unquestionable privilege to do that. If raiders have some new insight regarding tactics, they are welcome to share this information with Raid Leader in private chat. But doing so openly in raid channel is strictly forbidden, and raider doing so will be issued 1 (one) Warning Point immediately. Whether to remove that raider from raid, or not, it'll be in sole discretion of Raid Leader.
  
  Additionally, bashing raiders for failures is strictly forbidden: that right relies with Raid Leader only. A Raider complaining about some other Raider's failures during raid, in VoIP, is subject to 1 (one) Warning point immediately, and possibly can be replaced with other Raider.

 

Warning Points

 

Warning points are issued via forums, for certain penalty-requiring Raider behaviour. They reset every week. Once a Raider reaches 3 (three) Warning Points for a given week, he will be put into Review-by-Raid-Leader status, as Raid Core member. If he gets 3 (three) Warning Points the next week, he will be removed from Raid Core and can't rejoin for 1 (one) full month. Review-by-Raid-Leader status is reset after 2 (two) weeks, if Raider manages to remain in Raid Core.

The situations mentioned above will cause your account to be issued a Warning point(s).

[Flavia]

Currently I don't have enough skill points for second role, I need extra 20-30 skill points. Can't say what it will be at VR10, but at this point second role is simply impossible for me. 

I've done a lot of dungeons and IMO the most effective builds aren't mixed. Pure templar healer is a GOD. Resto-staff healers suck heavily in comparison with templar. Semi-tank/dps also isn't good, they can't properly tank and they can do only half of my dps. Yea, they can be somewhat OK, but they are not good. I don't want to transform that awesome healer into bad tank, I don't want to transform good tank in bad dps. There are a lot of such examples. It's not only about your class or skill points, don't forget attributes - you won't get more then 49. A lot of people don't understand game mechanics - what abilities and attacks are effected by weapon/spell damage, magicka/stamina. Some classes can switch easily, but for some such change is ineffective. 

[Thyworm]

I completely agree Flavia. My DPS as a tank is bad because I have no points invested in stamina. I don't need those for tanking - got 49 points in health obv - but the result is bad DPS. And no skills - trying some 2-handed DPS atm - make up for that loss.

[gelmir]

Then, let me ask: how on Earth Templar full-spec healers or other full-spec tanks quest in open world if they are not capable of viable DPS? There are bosses in many instanced conditions where you can't simply progress with mediocre numbers. Additionally, although I haven't played Templar yet, I don't believe resto-staff Healers would suffer greatly - it must be certain healer's skills that fails there. At least in 12-50 standard dungeons, I felt quite OK healing the party; even in conditions when we had awful noobish evasion failures.

 

Thanks for input Flavia, btw. Let's hear others as well, so come on guys, share your experiences with us.

[Guest neaNicu]

Gelmir, my understanding (following some private discussions with Thyworm) is as follows (I will use myself as an example): my SOLO play/build is obviously ok since I could defeat with ease some instanced bosses like Molag Bal, Mannimarco and so on.

 

However, the same build is bad for GROUP (raid) purposes because:

1) it is not a full tank (I miss those blocking skills from 1 handed+shield)

2) it is not a full DPS (I put all attributes in health instead of stamina) + I use heavy armor instead of medium armor, which would provide stamina.

3) it is (obviously) not a healer, even if I use dragon blood (self-healing).

 

So basically in SOLO play you could use a mix of roles in a quite effective way but in GROUP play SPECIALIZATION is key (so instead of being a mediocre mix of DPS/tank, for group purposes it would be better to change skills, attributes to become full tank or full DPS).

That's because a team of specialized people is stronger that a mix of people doing a little of many roles.

Forvige me if I'm noob but this is my understanding and I feel Thyworm has a point here.

I am quite frustrated about this situation (to find out middle of game that I played wrong for group-purposes even if my solo-play is ok) but...

 

As for templar healers vs non-templar healers, I will ask Vulturul (which plays templar healer) to explain why the first is by far more effective.

[gelmir]

No I totally understand guys, and I agree generally. Thing is: you can't expect people to respec everyday for raids, right? They need to be able to do their everyday mundane questing, and raiding at the same time. So, please someone tell me, what is the solution there for dedicated Healers and Tanks? How are they supposed to do that without proper DPS spec? Anyone?

[Guest neaNicu]

You'll receive your answer when we'll find out how difficult those trials are. If they are so difficult that only a team of specialized people can do it, then we'll have to respec.

My guess (knowing Elder Scrolls spirit "play how you want") is that they will set difficulty as to be accesible to people with mixed roles, like you said but that's just a guess...

[gelmir]

Ok, thanks So its how I imagine it, at least for the time being, with information we have at hand.

 

Please guys, share ANY insight, info you receive with us in this topic, on the matter at hand - so that we could decide our course of action, regarding "Two Roles" mandate.

[Flavia]

At least in 12-50 standard dungeons, I felt quite OK healing the party

 

You said it yourself, it's ok, but far from great. It was great when I run throw 3 dungs on 42 lvl without single death with only 3 ppl in group. Healer didn't even try to do damage, tank was taunting and blocking 80% of time. Each member was good in his specific role. The game felt very simple.

 

I think the game is build for mediocre players. When a random group can complete every dungeon - it is mediocre. I remember only 5 bosses (except group dungs) that I couldn't kill solo. I even didn't know who Mannimarco is, I didn't noticed this guy. If you try a little bit harder, everything becomes so easy. Each of us must find in what he is best at. Only in that way we can be really effective and deadly.  

 

Soon we will know more about trials and dungs, then we can tweak our rules. Currently we don't know what we have and what we lack.

I hope soon we can try first VR dungs all together. 

[Thyworm]

I just quest in tank gear. Plain and simple. At least I won't die. And I don't do much DPS, but I can kill someone. It just takes me twice as long, but I calculated that from the start. Leveling a tank for me is time-consuming, but it's like that in most games. I did the same in WoW and LOTRO. I want to be able to do an instance on the spot, and I didn't want to respecc all the time, so I just quest in tank gear and with tank skills. Especially here in ESO, with a respecc cost of 15k so far, I want to be able to tank an instance and my questing suffers for it, but I'm fine with that.

[Thyworm]

regarding veteran dungeons. I completed one yesterday at vet rank 2. We wiped like 20 times, but we did it, with dedicated tank, dedicated healer and 2 sorceresses. They're tough, but with dedicated tank and healer and some decent DPS, you can do it. Even at vet rank lvl 1. It's about tactics and a good build. AOE DPS is pretty important, but survival skills and the right ultimates are equally important. Gonna try the second one soon.

 

It's not really useful btw to do them, because you can't use the gear that drops until rank 5. But they're fun, and you get a skillpoint.