ATTN All: PvE Stats Standards - Please participate

[gelmir]

Hello guild,

 

I had few chances to participate in veteran dungeons, and while I was there, I tried to observe what my team and I lacked. Based on those observations, I want to discuss our PvE standards, with following questions asked:

• What should be rank-5+ PvE'ers minimum HP pool to survive massive boss damages? - To my experience, unbuffed, without pots, min 1.5 HP is a must. This corresponds to min 25 points spent in HP.
   
• What minimum resistances - Spell + Physical (i.e. Armor) - we need to have in heavy PvE situations? - To my experience, abilities granting big resistances is a must, even if we don't choose enchant our gears with resistance-based glyphs. E.g.: Mages have at least 2 of those. Let's also discuss our options in regard towards crafting: what traits we should focus on, when we craft gear aimed for endgame?
   
• Shall we allow pets into PvE? - To my experience, pets don't really do any viable damage in PvE situation. What you think?
   
• For DPS, we need 2x specs readied: one specifically aiming for ST (single-target) DPS, the other for AOE DPS. - Ideas? Let's discuss DPS standards.
   
• Tanks need to have at least 1.7-1.8k HP pool or Defense stats (good armor?) to survive heavy damage. - Let's discuss our Tank standards please.
   
• Healers, Support roles - as a Restoration healer, I really didn't have hard time, except in situations where my Magicka was consumed/absorbed by the mechanic of the boss fight. What strategy should we follow in regard of Healers and Supporters?

 

These topics I think are good template for a discussion for the moment. Feel free to add your questions/concerns as well. Let's discuss and decide as a guild.

[Guest Miscarcand Mallari]

Well i cannot speak for other classes but for tanks I think the armor soft cap has to be hit ( comes with heavy armor easily ) and i think 1.7-1.8k hp is not enough for craglorn.. i run 2.4k hp atm and it still very close in dungeons sometimes. Spell res is also something that is very important but i am not sure about that. And i think it is mandatory that tanks use sword and shield.. thats all i can think of atm

[Flavia]

• Tanks: Armor, armor, armor. Mainly reinforced traits and maybe 2-3 Infused. Evasion is even better then enormous armor, skills like Ash Cloud should help. Hist Bark set with dodge rating looks good, but I didn't test it. Jewelry with reduced block cost. High stamina regen. Block all the way, do not release that button. 
• DPS: Crit, crit, crit. Two different classes in a group - fighter and mage. With addons it's easy to switch skill setup between the fights. For trash mobs - AOE setup, for bosses - single target. Balance usage of MP and stamina. High off-hand damage even without abilities. Divines traits, Mundus stone for damage or crits.
• Healers: If you dry out quickly  - Warlock or Magnus set, mages guild Equilibrium, Dark exchange, Jewelry for potions cooldown. Keep skills like Immovable or Circle of Protection to survive heavy rain.

For everybody I would recommend to test your build in dungeons for small groups (2-3). Go there alone and test your sustainability, tactics, damage. Then you can figure out what you really lack and tweak your gear, attributes, skills. If your build is strong, you will be ok by yourself. If your build is super strong - you will even kill those bosses all alone.

 

 

[gelmir]

 

• Tanks: Armor, armor, armor. Mainly reinforced traits and maybe 2-3 Infused. Evasion is even better then enormous armor, skills like Ash Cloud should help. Hist Bark set with dodge rating looks good, but I didn't test it. Jewelry with reduced block cost. High stamina regen. Block all the way, do not release that button. 
• DPS: Crit, crit, crit. Two different classes in a group - fighter and mage. With addons it's easy to switch skill setup between the fights. For trash mobs - AOE setup, for bosses - single target. Balance usage of MP and stamina. High off-hand damage even without abilities. Divines traits, Mundus stone for damage or crits.
• Healers: If you dry out quickly  - Warlock or Magnus set, mages guild Equilibrium, Dark exchange, Jewelry for potions cooldown. Keep skills like Immovable or Circle of Protection to survive heavy rain.

For everybody I would recommend to test your build in dungeons for small groups (2-3). Go there alone and test your sustainability, tactics, damage. Then you can figure out what you really lack and tweak your gear, attributes, skills. If your build is strong, you will be ok by yourself. If your build is super strong - you will even kill those bosses all alone.

 

 

Thanks mate, you really added great perspective to this discussion I somehow feel a lot more positive now!

[Guest Sepirothine]

Twilight's Embrace i think. 3 traits... im sure we've all got that locked down.

 

Eyes of Mara for the healer themself

 

ive mostly healed in dungeons ( though im not a huge dungeon guy so i prolly dont know much ) theres two main problems a healer faces imo.

 

1 drying up... that can be sorted. pots gear buffs etc.

 

2. trying to catch 3 different people, all running around like crazy to get them in heal range, has been a major pain when i've run with randoms resulting in wipes because i couldnt heal properly ( my fault not doing my job right, prolly )

knowing what direction people are gonna run, or getting people to stay in the healers ao, would not be a bad thing imo

 

ive been dd in dungeons to, and i've found the healer, trys to help in killing mobs, not a bad thing... but for v dungeons, i think the only thing a healer should be looking at... is the team. my bar has nothing but heals on it, i stay on the fringes of the fight, forget about hitting the mobs and do nothing but heal....

 

as for pets ( i assume you mean deadric summoned ) im kinda unsure,  winged twilight can heal me if i get to low on health... which could be a saver if i get aggro... clamfear can usually take aggro away... im unsure if pets hitting mobs gains you aggro though :/

 

my mantra for dungeons based on my little xp... know your damm role.

 

as a side question...

what about ww, vamp issues.

ive tried looking for ways to null the debuffs, but im not a stats guy.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Sepirothine

[gelmir]

Most probably we won't be allowing vamps to raids, unless fire problem is solved. And so far, I have seen no indication of that anywhere.

[Morier]

As you said DPS classes should have one singled target and one aoe spec of course.

I think 1500 hp is attainable with 15 (not 25) points if i'm not mistaken.

Even though i don't like pets using one can be beneficial as they provide a steady dps with no mana consumption. At least for winged twilight the restoring twilight with that magicka regeneration aura seems very useful for party/raid environment. 

[Guest MightyLampshade]

I've got 15+ points and I'm pretty sure I haven't hit the 1500 mark. Since I'm only level 28, my input is probably not great but I would recommend everyone to take a look on the ESO subreddit and forums about particular builds too, some people have already crunched the numbers

I recently respec'd back into sword and board, and I agree that it is a must for tanks. Plus I think the only abilities that use stamina that a tank should bring to the fight is puncture for the taunt, and maybe shield charge to get inside mobs quickly. Currently I use shield charge, pop off dark talons and fiery breath, the start puncturing any that get away. Plus the fire chains is good here too for bringing back lost mobs.

Any passives to do with block, like reduction or mitigation are a must. I took all of them and had skill points leftover. Item enchants for resistances are a must, and maybe block too.

I think for tanks you should make sure you have the correct mundus stone too.

I'm doing this from my phone so I apologise for any mistakes or errors lol.

[Flavia]

Eyes of Mara for the healer themself

 

5 item set with 3% cost reduction.

Seducer set has the same bonus, but only with 3 items. Nevertheless, in long fights Magnus set is better (5% to negate cost).

 

I don't see free space for pets. Inner Light - spell crit. Any other mages quild ability increase spell power with next attack. Crystal Fragments, Endless Fury - huge damage. Critical Surge, Siphom Spirit, Elemental Ring, Bound Armor - so many other skills that are better then any pet. Only Atronach ulti seems useful.  

[gelmir]

Yea, pet abilities occupy valuable quick bar slot: instead you can put there some mitigation ability, or different dps ability with less or more magicka requirement.

[Guest Sal]

My input:

 

Health - 1.5k HP is reachable with far less than 25 points in Health. you can get HP from armor enchants, you can't get Spell power with enchants, that you would otherwise get by investing points in Magika rather than Health. 2k+ HP should be the target for tanks if not 2.5k, they should be able to easily hit the soft cap on Armor and spell resist with only the Heavy armor passives

 

Resists - Anyone with Light an Heavy armor should be at the soft cap at least.

 

Builds - We shouldn't limit the dps classes to 2 specs - AoE (trash) and Single target (Boss fights), unlike other games you can swap specs at will outside of the fights so i would recommend having a couple of dps with healing/tank as second spec during boss fights. Creative use of skills like inner fire slotted on the secondary skill bar by a range DPS can save the tank in a desperate moment. Same goes for a heal or 2 thrown by a melee dps in the thick of the fight by a means of some restoration staff skills slotted on the secondary bar

 

Pets are useless their dps is rather poor, they die far too easily and they interfere with CC. Restoring twilight gives little benefit to someone using mgika as a primary resource - if they are not soft capped on magika regen they should have been left out of the Raid/Dungeon/Trial etc. Last but not least they reduce the mana pool and take up valuable slots on the main skill bar.

 

Magika regen - Dark Exchange is a must for sorcerers, can be easily slotted on the secondary bar. Can't really comment on other classes

[gelmir]

Let's hear more people.

 

Thyworm, we will need to sum up the ideas here, formulate regulations re specs and enforce them for better raiding performance. Since you are our PvE Officer, I recommend paying special attention to this discussion and if necessary: to build your advisors group - members who will join as Assistant Raid Leaders to advise you (of course, decision to have them lies with you). I see quite informed people here - we should use their experiences in higher echelon of this guild.

[Nuin]

As I wrote in another thread and with respect for what you all know because you have experienced dungeons, I'm going to point to a danger

 

This game has set us free to create unique characters with unique traits and skills. You can swap things around, specialise in something or be a renaissance character.

You can wear heavy armor as a mage and sneak around in light armor if you want.

 

I know you are doing this because you want raids to go smooth and you are trying to help

But I think we need to leave room for trying new (to MMO's) things.

 

Half the playerbase is probably ES fans, and they might have great ideas and other experiences then MMO players, because their sight is not limited to the role-structured way of thinking where a tank is this and that, use this and that weapon and armor and skills, and has to push this and that button.

 

Do we need a tank if we can CC everything?

Maybe it is worth testing.

 

I think Zeni is trying to take PvE to some other lvl (or I hope so), where we don't have the same restrictions as with other MMO's (class = skill, weapon and armor restrictions)

Let us embrace the diversity of people playing, instead of trying to put them into boxes.

 

Yes I take this to the extreme to make a point. And I appreciate and understand the help.

What I'm afraid will happen is that people are not allowed on raids if they play their character different from what some guide somewhere told.

Honestly how fun was it to sit and push the same buttons because someone told that was what you had to do?

The fun in dungeons are tactics and working out how to survive and kill, and that can probably be done in more then one way

 

That was my words

I'm little still and have much to test and try yet.

[Guest neaNicu]

As I said in other ocasions, it mainly depends on how Zenimax sets dungeon/raid/trial difficulty, Nuin.

If the difficulty is not so high, then people will do the dungeon with flexible builds. Even so, there will be others who will play "optimal" builds in order to reach leaderbords, receive special prizes and so on.

You will also see dungeons done (as it happens now) by teams of complete strangers, without TS coordination or wihtout knowing each other's skiils or gear.

 

If the difficulty will be extremely high, it will happen exactly as you said, the Guilds will allow only some specific builds into raid-team and the rest of players will quit game or pve entirely and switch to pvp, rp and so on.

[gelmir]

Nuin, you can't CC bosses as in every MMO You need a tank and all other roles. And since ESO difficulty is higher than other MMOs, you need special care about your specs. I think you are one of those who idealistically believes what ZoS is spewing about their game. Reality is: PvP in the game is plagiarized from GW2 - its almost exactly same setup with castles/keeps/sieges and all that. And PvE wise, even their Craglorn vids show traditional raid setups. So far, I see no evidence supporting free-play style in the game: everything indicates towards much more carefully crafted skill sets, much much more, in comparison to traditional MMOs. 

[Guest MightyLampshade]

There's the interesting thing about this game - the fact you can quickly "respec" during an instance. There are more than enough skill points to warrant at least two sets of abilities. If we take advantage of this, it will allow us to adapt to different raids with different members. I don't think we'll ever get stuck with hand-picked set-in-stone raiders. If we do, that's pretty much the end-game ruined for 90% of players who don't want to build walking spreadsheets. If I wanted to play a statistician's (what kind of word is that!?) wet dream, I'd play EVE Online.

 

Sticking to a general theme when building a character is more likely in my opinion, people will find out what works for them and stick to it until they get bored. If it doesn't work, they will change and adapt. A perfect example of this is myself (lo' and behold). I switched from one hand/shield/Draconic Heart around level 15 to 2-handed/Ardent Flame, and switched back at 28. The fact I got both magicka related trees up to around 35-38 means I can pick and choose from either tree. I'm doing more damage as a tanky character than I ever did as a DPS with 2-handed (though I bet if I stuck with 2-handed, I'd out-dps my tanky character pretty soon).

 

I think we also need to do a bit more research into potions and provisions, I've seen some pretty awesome stat buffs from those too.

Edited May 12, 2014 by MightyLampshade

[gelmir]

There's the interesting thing about this game - the fact you can quickly "respec" during an instance. 

 

That has existed in Rift for 3 years now. You can switch between up to 8 roles now on fly, when you are out of combat. Nothing new there...

[gelmir]

Keep skills like Immovable or Circle of Protection to survive heavy rain.

 

 

What you mean by this.

 

Only Atronach ulti seems useful.  

 

There is other ultimate, which silences and stops all mobs, including boss, in fights - can't remember the name right now. Happens to be useful for me in certain overwhelming situations. But of course, in long run, Atronach is better.

[Guest neaNicu]

Immovable is the ultimate of the first ESO emperor: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Immovable (against bowmen mainly -> heavy rain of arrows)

[Flavia]

Gelmir, Atronach - is the only useful pet (at least I consider it a pet), of course it's not the only useful ult.

Immovable or Circle of Protection add armor and spell resistance, you can live longer in tough situations. BTW, these skills consume stamina, so it's not a problem to use for healer. 

Serana, immovable - not an ult.

[Flavia]

About 'Raid Core Application'

'You need to have 2000+ Spell resistance and Armor when buffed (all roles, all classes).' - Buffs are all different. It can last for 5 sec, 15 sec or longer. It's better to demand base armor.

 

'We recommend Crit-reducing and Mundus bonus traits on gear' - nor reducing

 

Twilight's Embrance (heal bonus) is a good set for all roles. Night Mozers Gaze - for DPS with crit build.

[gelmir]

About 'Raid Core Application'

'You need to have 2000+ Spell resistance and Armor when buffed (all roles, all classes).' - Buffs are all different. It can last for 5 sec, 15 sec or longer. It's better to demand base armor.

 

Base armor generally comes with Light armor crafted. Adding additional armor traits - especially for mages - is cost-prohibitive: they'd rather use other stat-traits which are more important. Don't you agree?

 

 

'We recommend Crit-reducing and Mundus bonus traits on gear' - nor reducing

 

I meant "Resistance to Crit hits". Opinions?

[Flavia]

Traits aren't the only way to increase armor. You can also use jewelry, mundus stone, sets or simply wear 1-2 heavy armor pieces.

When you say 'gear' - I think of armor, weapon and jewelry. Clarify more: Impenetrable armor traits (I would add Infused too) and Precise weapon traits.

[gelmir]

I would never wear different armor types in raids, and actually we shouldn't allow such practice either: each piece of armor contributes to regeneration which is vital.

 

Jewellery generally providers regeneration rate, cost reduction to you - no other slot does that. So it is wise to use jewellery generally to that end.

 

Weapon's can't provide armor stats, maybe only armor reduction on target. So from whatever angle you look at it, each slot type has their place - traits-wise and stats-wise.

[Flavia]

I don't like reduction jewelry at all. Abilities cost 300-450 and the reduction is only around 20. 

Sets can provide attributes recovery too. If you already have recovery softcap, it's better to increase your armor a little bit. Armor enchants on jewelry are very strong. Even simple VR glyph adds 400-500 armor and It will take only 1 jewelry slot.

The problem is not only with light armor. Medium armor has low spell resistance. I like pure DPS, but honestly you don't want glass cannons at the raid.