Guild Bank Regulations

[Nuin]

Roger

[gelmir]

As we discussed in-game, I think we should swap our trait-craftings for research purposes via Guild Bank. To that end, I plan to prohibit destruction of white crafted gear with traits - we will be using them strictly for our research needs. And 1-3 items at a time. Please do not take everything for safe keeping purposes. 

 

Before making this official rule of Guild Bank usage, let's discuss it. Meanwhile, please do not destroy those items. Thanks everyone for your understanding!

[Guest Ater]

Gelmir, great idea.  I fully support.

[gelmir]

I warned 3 members today for violating guild bank rules and also taking all trait-crafted gear from GB - possibly for deconstruction. Members in question (names unimportant) were fined. The amount gathered from fines will be shared among our contributing crafters so that they weren't discouraged and kept contributing to the guild.

 

Total amount of fine: 8000 golds.

Received: 3000 golds.

Compensated to crafter contributors: 3000 golds (@vlasin - 2k, @BenPa - 1k).

 

Please, let's be careful with future GB usage. I don't want our dedicated members get tired and stop contributing because some guys are careless. Thanks!

[gelmir]

I decided against putting trait-crafted gear to GB. It's practically hard to impossible to manage that without stepping on toes: people happen to skip forums sometimes, and creating last minute rules about everything just hurts the relations in the guild.

 

Starting today, I urge all our crafters to put such trait-crafted gear in Guild Store (possibly with a symbolic price, like I did: 50-100 golds or so - though pricing is totally up to you of course). Whoever needs them, will get from there. Put your regular craftings for swapping in GB. That way people won't make mistakes, and you will get some change (as in money) from time to time.

 

For those who don't know how much traits cost in open market: I sell mine to those who have 1-2 traits left for 2k golds. Regular price though changes between 750-1000 golds.

 

Have fun folks!

[Guest neaNicu]

Although I'm not a crafter (except for provisioning) I think it's a good idea.

Maybe we'll see some activity in the Guild Store because last time I check it (1 week ago maybe) there was nothing interesting there. Same as Guild Bank.

I think people use a lot zone chat to sell / buy items and/or "trade guilds" (with many hundreds of members), which spam advertise in chat.

For example, I paid 4.000 gold for a purple VR5 sword some time ago, clearly looted from a group dungeon.

I would have preferred of course to buy such weapon from a colleague in Guild Store

But, unfortunately, up to now, chat is the only source of good items.

I'm obviously speaking from a client (not crafter) point of view.

Edited May 12, 2014 by neaNicu

[Nuin]

I think we also need to talk about what we can expect from other crafters in terms of helping eachother get good gear and consumables for raids.

I have up until recently deposited everything not for my craft (woodworking) into guildbank, meaning I didn't take things apart to save materials for blacksmithing, tailoring, glyphs and also adding provision items to guildbank.

 

Then I overheard someone offering to create gear for guildies for free if they provided the mats themselves. And then I bought more bank space and begun deconstructing the items I had otherwise donated to the guild. Because honestly I don't want to have given everything away and then also have to pay for materials if I want a set of armor crafted. So I now store material I might need in future, instead of sharing with people who need them now to practice crafting.

 

Was I naive in thinking we are a guild who will help each other get the gear we need?

Am I a fool for making free potions to people?

Am I stupid for swap enchanting items with flowers because I thought we where helping each other in the guild?

 

I like to think we want the best for everyone since we decide to play together and I will happily give what I find of materials to people who need it. But then maybe I can not raid ever because I can't afford to buy the materials I need. And that sucks.

 

Do you see the issue here?

 

I really want to keep giving away things and adding things to guildbank, because honestly I think it makes a better gaming environment if we are helpful, so I think we should aim for a communist approach where we give what we can and take what we need.

And then in future I'll happily make you a shield or staff with my materials, if you do the same for me

[Guest neaNicu]

I have same opinion as Nuin, but from a non-crafter point of view. It was a time when I used GB quite a lot, deposited all weapons/armor I didn't need (light armor, staves  or outlevelled items) and took from GB what I needed. I remember once I even found a purple / epic weapon of my level in GB.

I stopped depositing almost anything when I found out the GB is empty (in regards of weapons/armor). And I am not referring to my level but most levels.

I imagined a GB where everyone deposits green/blue outlevelled or useless non-bound items and take stuff of their level or their skill-line (example I deposit staves and take 2h swords).

Maybe I'm wrong but I think GB worked this way until de-constructing technique became very popular so people started take from GB items they didn't need for wearing but for de-contructing.

So GB is empty now. Not now but for 2 weeks at least.

I know I am one of the few non-crafter members of the guild so my opinion will obviously be un-popular but I'll say it anyway.

I am aware that it is impossible to have 2 guild banks (one for deconstructing and one for wearing) but it's clear that current system doesn't work and  GB will always be empty and useless.

[Guest Ater]

Was I naive in thinking we are a guild who will help each other get the gear we need?

Am I a fool for making free potions to people?

Am I stupid for swap enchanting items with flowers because I thought we where helping each other in the guild?

 

 

All of this not naive or stupid. All this is very good intentions.

Naive only assume that in guild with open recruitment, each new member will fully share these views from the start.

[Guest neaNicu]

Yeap, Ater could (also) be right. The current GB state could be because Guild increased quite a lot in terms of members lately.

But what is the alternative? To restrict access to GB?

I was (for few days) member in an Ebonheart guild which granted access to GB for leader and officers only (like 5-6 people from 70 in total).

I let you guess if I deposited anything into that GB in those few days of membership

[Guest Ater]

 

But what is the alternative? To restrict access to GB?

 

Restrict access to GB to most lower rank. And lower rank use as probation. It's pretty common practice in MMO.

 

But it not necessarily. Especially until there is nothing in the bank with real value.

For a start will be enough to make sure that the new member actually read all the rules of the guild. Especially when we have a good forum for this.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Ater

[gelmir]

Its not about restrictions. Guild rules clearly dictate that gear, unless rank-10, can be used for crafting purposes - aka deconstruction. Whatever you put there, was taken and deconstructed. And in its place, newly crafted white gear was donated. There is nothing wrong with this: it is what was intended from the beginning. If this wasn't what you expected, then I think there was some points not understood from GB rules.

 

What concerns the question "should I share everything?": No you shouldn't. You should share the equal type and amount of stuff you are taking from GB (when crafting is concerned of course): if you take 10x rank-1 glyphs for breaking, you should do your best to put back as many rank-1 glyphs someday, even if not that same day. The enthusiasm should be felt. You shouldn't swap "flowers for glyphs" tho They ain't of same value - that would be unfair.

 

And it is totally Ok to accumulate your own stockpile of mats. If you are not doing so, start doing that immediately - otherwise we gonna have problems in long run, when time for raid-crafting comes. One will either provide money, or mats, when that time comes. If one can't provide any of those two, that will mean no gear, which explicitly means no raiding Please be prepared!

[Nuin]

That last paragraph is exactly what I think we should try and change.

 

Why not stockpile the materials in GB instead of we all have to try and collect everything?

GB has 500 spaces, loads of room to store the materials. It is silly we all hoard everything from fear we might one day need it. Which means we hoard some items others might need, because we will be scared to share. If we all just add to GB those materials not for our own profession, those with the other professions take those and add what they don't need.

 

Then when I need a chest piece of armor with power trait on it, I ask for someone in guild who can make it. Someone can and makes it for me. Later on that same person will need a certain glyph, someone makes him that. The person who made the glyph now needs a staf and I make him one with also power on it. See how everyone gets what they need? And no materials are swapped, no gold spend. This way we make sure everyone can enjoy and have fun, and we will work as a group, not as individuals who is trying to take advantage on friends.

 

I work with this in real life. If it is possible in real life it is possible in a game. I believe people want to share. Maybe they think they don't, but when they realise how it works well and how everyone benifits from it, and how the environment becomes so much better from it, that will change.

 

And I think we should try and not be afraid.

If we don't trust people, change the time they need to be here to 2 months. Make sure members read forums and work with the guild.

 

If we don't do this, what exactly is it you propose I add to GB?

All white, green etc. items can be broken down for a chance to get materials some crafter will demand I provide if I need something made.

You just told me not to add those to GB.

 

I think again Zeni want us to think differently, and work together. And that is why there is no Auction House, that is why GB has many slots and our banks has few

[Flavia]

I swap "flowers for glyphs" with Nuin.  Of course I give much more flowers, but I didn't even ask if she considers it fair. I simply give everything I find, and I believe she does the same.

 

It's very hard to control 100+ members and their fairness. Some people are greedy and careless. They never deposit and take everything, even if they don't really need it. I look at the logs every day and I know we have plenty of those. It's hard to re-educate such people and always spy on them, but we can simply restrain ourselves.

My suggestion:

Lets create small crafters sub-guild. We will invite only few trusted active members. We can swap traits, store rare materials, collect VR sets and other end-game high-value items. If we will have more then we need, we can carry it over to regular GB. 

[Guest Ater]

Lets create small crafters sub-guild. We will invite only few trusted active members. We can swap traits, store rare materials, collect VR sets and other end-game high-value items. If we will have more then we need, we can carry it over to regular GB. 

 

This is definitely the wrong way of thinking.

The meaning of the guild is to unite different people, and not to produce more smaller subgroups.

[Flavia]

Leader, Officers are sub-groups too. I suggest to add crafters sub-group. Management is impossible without authority distribution. Who wants anarchy here?

Edited May 12, 2014 by Flavia

[gelmir]

I am thinking about ranks now - will have some changes in Initiates and Neophytes' workings I guess.

 

Ok, currently all new members are Initiates. After 1 month, Initiates become Neophytes. Current system won't stop careless members: we will have them as Neophytes in a month, tops.

 

Let's consider you have crafters rank. There are many factors to consider here:

• We rather care about actual raiders/PvEers/PvPers. Being a good crafter doesn't have a value in essence: even if a crafter doesn't raid, there is no reason for him to donate mats anyway. If he does raid, then you will also have other raiders who do not craft. What about them? Those who craft will be donating for those who do not? How you propose we manage that in such a way that crafter-raiders do not feel used and some non-crafter-raiders don't abuse it?
   
• If you change Neophyte rank to crafter/raiders, and promote - by merit? - who will decide who deserves promotion, who doesn't? I have had a very "committed" member in Rift, who stayed with us almost since day 1 - remember Bumper/Woodsie, Nuin? - and after 2 years, when he left guild, we took quite a lot of stuff from GB including some plats. How you plan to base your trust assets on members?
   
• If you don't address questions above, the best case scenario will be separating crafter-raiders from non-crafter-raiders, which will be nothing different than separatism within our guild: I don't want that. Yes, we can have Raiders group, which is a function-subgroup, having a merit to exist. But you can't divide that Raiders group depending on their crafting practices.
   

That's why I made the conclusion of: everyone for himself! ESO is different. Crafting here is totally different. GB isn't vault-based. At some point, potential raider needs to prepare for his future, raiding-wise of course. Unless we come up with some magic way of handling this issue without stepping on toes and hurting people, this is the only way I am afraid.

 

Please let's discuss more. Let's hear more ideas, thoughts. If we solve this issue, it will be an awesome step in this guild's ESO history!

[gelmir]

I have an idea of switching ENTIRE guild bank to RAIDING FOCUSED only. Nothing else enters there, except Raiding related stuff.

 

On the other hand, I also considered inviting all approved raid core members to REGERE SANGUINE as well. Guess that idea should be embraced, thought about.

[Nuin]

Are we not all raiders in one way or the other?

I can probably not make the cut for core-raiders due to number of evenings and my slow lvl'ing.

But that is not the same as saying I can never do PvE. Or PvP

 

Also I would honestly not mind crafting stuff for core-raiders who don't craft, why should I? I think we each sit on more material then we need because we have the just-in-case hoarding tendency And put together we can arm all with good weapons.

 

Yes I remember him Gelmir, and that sucked And there is the risk that people like him will ruin us.

 

Anyways, I'm a broken record now I'll shut it

And follow whatever is decided by you all... as I might be very alone in my opinions lol

[Guest Thomasbee]

How about Nuin creates a new guild "LoS swap" or something, we all join and deposit stuff there leaving main GB for raid gear.

 

She can post clear instruction for what is to be deposited.

[Flavia]

Gelmir, as you said earlier: “You should share the equal type and amount of stuff you are taking from GB†- this is fundamental unwritten rule that does not work. All other rules don’t matter if you can’t solve this. So, crafter sub-group (or whatever you can call it) must only guarantee fair exchange. That is all. You can think of it as an additional vault. All global rules can stay.

 

It doesn’t matter what your contribution is and from were it comes. You can be a grinder, raider, PvPer or crafter. You still can deposit any materials, plants, runes, gear and withdraw equal amount of other items. I think we all want to achieve only this, isn't it?

 

How to promote? By merit and votes. We can start small and create core-group that will determine fate of future newbies. Of course, there are a lot of tricksters, but at least we can exclude most obvious. 

 

Such group will be rather small and people must really work to join it. Currently more then half our members do not deposit at all.

[gelmir]

So what you saying is that we create Core member-base echelon who "cherry-pick" contributi-ve new members and add them to their ranks? Hmm... Sounds nice, but I still don't know how to achieve the middle grounds where regular members could share trivial stuff as well. Lack of vault-based guild banking makes it awfully hard. Without it

 

 

It doesn’t matter what your contribution is and from were it comes. You can be a grinder, raider, PvPer or crafter. You still can deposit any materials, plants, runes, gear and withdraw equal amount of other items. I think we all want to achieve only this, isn't it?

 

will end up people swapping "flowers for glyphs" and at that stage I expect complaints. Any solutions to this potential problem? I just can't restrict GB to majority of members who are non-contributors and let only contributors use it - or can I?

[Flavia]

Of course, there are no ideal systems. We will have our issues, but we can solve it more easily in a small group that share the same philosophy of “fair exchangeâ€.

 

If both parties agree, there is nothing wrong in swapping “flowers for glyphsâ€. I don’t need plants, but maybe later I can use some potions. She doesn’t need glyphs, but later she will need enchants. I understand that it’s stupid to demand tons of VR potions, and she realizes that she doesn’t need powerful golden glyphs now. My requests are adequate and I am ready to share. It makes everybody happy.

 

Regular members and non-contributors can still use main GB. Personally I would restrict access until new member signs in GB rules topic on forum. It means lowest rank won’t have access.

 

[Flavia]

We have another minor issue. Today GB was full (500/500 items), but simply by stacking resources in a single pile I was able to decrease total amount of items to ~370. 

I always try to withdraw resources first, then add mine and deposit. In such way there won't be multiple stacks of the same resource.

[Nuin]

It's so nice you clean the bank and keep it tidy

Very good karma